Marc Jacobs S/S 17 New York Showlist

Can we discuss the choice of wool dreadlocks? I'm white, and I'm also not about to start some sort of social justice debate. I am curious about how others interpret this choice. Where does this stem from? Cyber-punk? Is this some sort of commentary?

lechatnoir · Sep 16, 2016

art hoe said:
Can we discuss the choice of wool dreadlocks? I'm white, and I'm also not about to start some sort of social justice debate. I am curious about how others interpret this choice. Where does this stem from? Cyber-punk? Is this some sort of commentary?

I was pretty taken aback as well...and I'm not sure how I feel about his response...

Some further reading. I am interested in hearing everyone's thoughts!

espressoenthusiast · Sep 16, 2016

At the very least, I find it a uninspired and very culturally inconsistent choice. It surprises me why anyone would preach the "I don't see race" narrative given what has been going on in America, unless they have been under a rock (or with their head firmly up their own ass). I'm not going to defend how I feel about the cultural appropriation debate as a whole, because I think it is far more complex than either side portrays it to be (ie. where to draw the line, can one minority group possibly appropriate from another, if white people naturalized in a foreign country or culture can exhibit those styles, etc.), but dreads are kind of the bottom of the barrel--only one step above blackface.

Artemis · Sep 16, 2016

espressoenthusiast said:
dreads are kind of the bottom of the barrel--only one step above blackface.

Dreadlocks are pretty much the first human hairstyle, no culture can claim ownership. CLICK FOR BASIC HISTORY OF DREADS
If Africans want to claim that they look *better* in dreads than Europeans or Asians, I think they have a enormously strong case. If each race is only allowed to wear or use the fat of their own original civilization, we'd all have a pretty shitty time. Imagine if Caucasian American men were the only ones allowed to ride in airplanes? Or the Japanese the only ones allowed to eat sushi? Really, if we implemented that, the only hairstyle we could all wear would be dreads, because every race has in antiquity.

And if you think models wearing dreads is akin to b l a c k f a c e, (which was intent to mock, not elevate, like say, a runway) you need to check your reasoning.

I am very suspicious of SJW who think they need to "protect" African American culture; all it says to me is that they don't think that they're are capable of contributing like other civilizations have, they have to be isolated, kept in a bubble, on welfare, in ghettos, and farmed for votes, with just enough to live on--have fun with the hip hop, basketball, and dreads. What happened to globalization?

sentier · Sep 17, 2016

Artemis said:
Dreadlocks are pretty much the first human hairstyle, no culture can claim ownership. CLICK FOR BASIC HISTORY OF DREADS
If Africans want to claim that they look *better* in dreads than Europeans or Asians, I think they have a enormously strong case. If each race is only allowed to wear or use the fat of their own original civilization, we'd all have a pretty shitty time. Imagine if Caucasian American men were the only ones allowed to ride in airplanes? Or the Japanese the only ones allowed to eat sushi? Really, if we implemented that, the only hairstyle we could all wear would be dreads, because every race has in antiquity.

And if you think models wearing dreads is akin to b l a c k f a c e, (which was intent to mock, not elevate, like say, a runway) you need to check your reasoning.

I am very suspicious of SJW who think they need to "protect" African American culture; all it says to me is that they don't think that they're are capable of contributing like other civilizations have, they have to be isolated, kept in a bubble, on welfare, in ghettos, and farmed for votes, with just enough to live on--have fun with the hip hop, basketball, and dreads. What happened to globalization?

THANK YOU. Dreads have belonged to many many different cultures over time. Here in Australia they are heavily associated with surfer culture (when I think dreads I think the hippy surfers that hang out in my area smoking pot) and are also often worn by the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. If anyone wants to scream cultural appreciation here you could go and say that African culture is appropriating Ancient Egypt since they were the first in history to make it an important part of their culture. Or you know, the Romans, Vikings, Christians, Israeli people etc. It is not blackface, it is a hairstyle worn by many cultures.

Intrinsicality · Oct 6, 2016

Holy hell. This whole exchange escaped my notice. I agree with dreads being part of many ancient and even current cultures.

Also, logically speaking....ALL hair can form dreads through neglect. Many ascetic /religious folks from the Indian subcontinent sport dreads as an extension of their lives and beliefs (they wash but never comb). So, to....demarcate a hairstyle (that is a natural occurrence of the keratin in your hair matting) as cultural appropriation is such a reach.

Oftentimes as a child I would forget to brush my hair the whole day, especially after a shower. I have fine, straight to wavy hair. My mom would insist on brushing my hair to discourage dreadlocks forming or 'jata' as we call them.

Also, I remember watching this video;

How absurd is this ?

vanitas · Oct 6, 2016

Intrinsicality said:
Holy hell. This whole exchange escaped my notice. I agree with dreads being part of many ancient and even current cultures.

Also, logically speaking....ALL hair can form dreads through neglect. Many ascetic /religious folks from the Indian subcontinent sport dreads as an extension of their lives and beliefs (they wash but never comb). So, to....demarcate a hairstyle (that is a natural occurrence of the keratin in your hair matting) as cultural appropriation is such a reach.

Oftentimes as a child I would forget to brush my hair the whole day, especially after a shower. I have fine, straight to wavy hair. My mom would insist on brushing my hair to discourage dreadlocks forming or 'jata' as we call them.

Also, I remember watching this video;

How absurd is this ?

Yeah, my hair forms dreads if I don't comb it for a bit (which happens more than it should, working from home etc). My aunt had the same kind of hair. Just one of those things.

A friend of mine is from Pakistan and experienced occasional racism while we were at school. It was exceptionally unpleasant to see this nice, funny, kind person getting called offensive names because of where she was from (she always had a lot of support in our class thankfully, it was just one or two girls with the problem). I haven't really been able to understand how abuse towards another person like this is on a similar level towards choosing to try out a hairstyle that looks very good on some races in particular but whenever I've tried to look into it further, the comments descend into 'white privilege' remarks very quickly.

So it's interesting to see some alternative debate here.

Artemis · Oct 8, 2016

vanitas said:
but whenever I've tried to look into it further, the comments descend into 'white privilege' remarks very quickly.

So it's interesting to see some alternative debate here.

I think about this a lot and it bothers me. I would never for a second argue that everyone gets a fair shot at life, reality is too often cruel and tragic, and I think having a goal of equality and fairness between citizens is one of the most wonderful things to have . . . but . . . there's a difference between treating everyone equally, listening to everyone equally, holding everyone to the same standard, and forcing equality by harming and penalizing some (for the color of their skin alone), silencing their voices, expression, and holding them to different standards and even lying to accentuate suffering (because suffering seems to be a currency these days). The first one takes longer but the results are permanent and worth it.

Want to hear a funny story?

So, you know those ancestry.com ads, they always allude to an unkown family history that's royal or special. Wellll, in a fairly successful attempt to bond with my mother, I did our family ancestry.

Guess what I found out about my white privilege:

-no one in my family could read or write until the 20th century
-no one in my family has ever graduated from university or trade school
-no one in my family has been anything but a salesman or a farmer [or model <3]
-there were lots of babies and mothers that died
-they came over on a big ship with legal papers calling them 'religious refugees' 300 years ago
-they have lived, despite being barefoot and toothless, happily in a small isolated farming community being the religious kooks that got them into trouble in their native country
-they never owned a single slave
-or participated in any KKK meetings
-or had any criminal records of a racial/hate crime nature

At first, I was embarrassed because I wasn't a long lost princess or related to Tesla. Fucking commercials! But then I realised . . . I'm not guilty. I have a my own share of 'sins of thy father' to contend with but none of them were racism. No one in my family seemed to even participate in racially determined institutions like college or government. The idea that **all** white people have, through antiquity, worked actively to suppress other races isn't true and that's why you have to either ditch 'white privilege' or go alllll the fucking way with the determinism/authoritarianism and make every white person keep records for their privileged status and punish them accordingly, right? Seems fair. I've got mine!

Another thought:
Do you think someone who'd dismisses my arguments on the grounds of my 'white privilege' would be happy to know my family didn't violate any human rights? Do you think they are happy, relieved, or even critical for more information when I cite historical evidence (that took me 5 minutes to find) for dreads being used around the world for millennia? It seems like something that would make the socially-conscious person so happy to know--"Alas, the world is not quite so terrible as it once seemed." But no. They're either angry . . . or they run away.

Layla · Oct 8, 2016

Artemis said:
I think about this a lot and it bothers me. I would never for a second argue that everyone gets a fair shot at life, reality is too often cruel and tragic, and I think having a goal of equality and fairness between citizens is one of the most wonderful things to have . . . but . . . there's a difference between treating everyone equally, listening to everyone equally, holding everyone to the same standard, and forcing equality by harming and penalizing some (for the color of their skin alone), silencing their voices, expression, and holding them to different standards and even lying to accentuate suffering (because suffering seems to be a currency these days). The first one takes longer but the results are permanent and worth it.

Want to hear a funny story?

So, you know those ancestry.com ads, they always allude to an unkown family history that's royal or special. Wellll, in a fairly successful attempt to bond with my mother, I did our family ancestry.

Guess what I found out about my white privilege:

-no one in my family could read or write until the 20th century
-no one in my family has ever graduated from university or trade school
-no one in my family has been anything but a salesman or a farmer [or model <3]
-there were lots of babies and mothers that died
-they came over on a big ship with legal papers calling them 'religious refugees' 300 years ago
-they have lived, despite being barefoot and toothless, happily in a small isolated farming community being the religious kooks that got them into trouble in their native country
-they never owned a single slave
-or participated in any KKK meetings
-or had any criminal records of a racial/hate crime nature

At first, I was embarrassed because I wasn't a long lost princess or related to Tesla. Fucking commercials! But then I realised . . . I'm not guilty. I have a my own share of 'sins of thy father' to contend with but none of them were racism. No one in my family seemed to even participate in racially determined institutions like college or government. The idea that **all** white people have, through antiquity, worked actively to suppress other races isn't true and that's why you have to either ditch 'white privilege' or go alllll the fucking way with the determinism/authoritarianism and make every white person keep records for their privileged status and punish them accordingly, right? Seems fair. I've got mine!

Another thought:
Do you think someone who'd dismisses my arguments on the grounds of my 'white privilege' would be happy to know my family didn't violate any human rights? Do you think they are happy, relieved, or even critical for more information when I cite historical evidence (that took me 5 minutes to find) for dreads being used around the world for millennia? It seems like something that would make the socially-conscious person so happy to know--"Alas, the world is not quite so terrible as it once seemed." But no. They're either angry . . . or they run away.

Another thread of the inherent racism debate is that it seems very America-centric and creates a dichotomy between whites and blacks. That's far from how it plays out in other countries, such as in Canada. Additionally most people don't learn how to read historical sources critically and get all their information from modern tertiary sources that don't give all the information and/or are heavily biased. I didn't necessarily want to get into this debate but I have been thinking about this a lot lately as a result of SGF. Forcing white guilt on other whites when you are yourself white never solved anything or brought about real and meaningful change.

bingeonvogue · Oct 9, 2016

Layla said:
Another thread of the inherent racism debate is that it seems very America-centric and creates a dichotomy between whites and blacks. That's far from how it plays out in other countries, such as in Canada. Additionally most people don't learn how to read historical sources critically and get all their information from modern tertiary sources that don't give all the information and/or are heavily biased. I didn't necessarily want to get into this debate but I have been thinking about this a lot lately as a result of SGF. Forcing white guilt on other whites when you are yourself white never solved anything or brought about real and meaningful change.

Omg, this so much.

vanitas · Oct 10, 2016

Artemis said:
I think about this a lot and it bothers me. I would never for a second argue that everyone gets a fair shot at life, reality is too often cruel and tragic, and I think having a goal of equality and fairness between citizens is one of the most wonderful things to have . . . but . . . there's a difference between treating everyone equally, listening to everyone equally, holding everyone to the same standard, and forcing equality by harming and penalizing some (for the color of their skin alone), silencing their voices, expression, and holding them to different standards and even lying to accentuate suffering (because suffering seems to be a currency these days). The first one takes longer but the results are permanent and worth it.

Want to hear a funny story?

So, you know those ancestry.com ads, they always allude to an unkown family history that's royal or special. Wellll, in a fairly successful attempt to bond with my mother, I did our family ancestry.

Guess what I found out about my white privilege:

-no one in my family could read or write until the 20th century
-no one in my family has ever graduated from university or trade school
-no one in my family has been anything but a salesman or a farmer [or model <3]
-there were lots of babies and mothers that died
-they came over on a big ship with legal papers calling them 'religious refugees' 300 years ago
-they have lived, despite being barefoot and toothless, happily in a small isolated farming community being the religious kooks that got them into trouble in their native country
-they never owned a single slave
-or participated in any KKK meetings
-or had any criminal records of a racial/hate crime nature

At first, I was embarrassed because I wasn't a long lost princess or related to Tesla. Fucking commercials! But then I realised . . . I'm not guilty. I have a my own share of 'sins of thy father' to contend with but none of them were racism. No one in my family seemed to even participate in racially determined institutions like college or government. The idea that **all** white people have, through antiquity, worked actively to suppress other races isn't true and that's why you have to either ditch 'white privilege' or go alllll the fucking way with the determinism/authoritarianism and make every white person keep records for their privileged status and punish them accordingly, right? Seems fair. I've got mine!

Another thought:
Do you think someone who'd dismisses my arguments on the grounds of my 'white privilege' would be happy to know my family didn't violate any human rights? Do you think they are happy, relieved, or even critical for more information when I cite historical evidence (that took me 5 minutes to find) for dreads being used around the world for millennia? It seems like something that would make the socially-conscious person so happy to know--"Alas, the world is not quite so terrible as it once seemed." But no. They're either angry . . . or they run away.

There's a lot to be proud of with that family history. I too, would like to have been related to Tesla but nope, just a long line of small holdings in Sussex; there are many worse people to be descended from.

I can't speak for what it feels like to experience racism, but I can speak for what it feels like to experience discrimination because of a disability in the family and one thing I feel quite strongly is that the intent of the person is the most important factor in how they should be judged. Plenty of people use the 'right' words, say all the politically correct things about kids with disability, talk about inclusiveness etc etc but still make a face when a child with a disability comes near them.

Other people might use less PC wording when talking about your child but be genuinely open and friendly and willing to give some of their time and effort towards helping you. This happens a lot where I live because there's a language difference and PC terminology isn't really a thing here. In these situations, I would never dream of correcting someone's phrasing or use of language because it's clear that they care and want to help; that's the important thing, not whether they used the 'wrong' word during a conversation with me.

So I really feel there's a difference between people who feel, deep down that there's something wrong with other people because they are in some way different to them, whether by race, gender, mental or physical faculties or any other reason, and subsequently go out of their way to treat them badly as a consequence of this, and people who have no issue whatsoever with people being different to themselves but may not have read up on what the current 'rules' are regarding what you should and shouldn't say to people. There's nothing wrong with pointing out to someone when they may have made a mistake, but I don't feel people should be treated as though they are as bad as people who directly go out of their way to abuse or harass others, simply because they used the wrong words or wore something that people would rather they didn't.

So to return to the subject of this thread briefly, I don't believe Marc Jacobs intended to insult, harass or abuse anybody with the hairstyles in this show and I don't think his feelings towards this hairstyle were negative or that he aimed to show it in a bad light. I think he thought the hair and clothing would enhance one another. I don't see where the bad intentions are here.

Artemis · Oct 10, 2016

vanitas said:
There's a lot to be proud of with that family history. I too, would like to have been related to Tesla but nope, just a long line of small holdings in Sussex; there are many worse people to be descended from.

I can't speak for what it feels like to experience racism, but I can speak for what it feels like to experience discrimination because of a disability in the family and one thing I feel quite strongly is that the intent of the person is the most important factor in how they should be judged. Plenty of people use the 'right' words, say all the politically correct things about kids with disability, talk about inclusiveness etc etc but still make a face when a child with a disability comes near them.

Other people might use less PC wording when talking about your child but be genuinely open and friendly and willing to give some of their time and effort towards helping you. This happens a lot where I live because there's a language difference and PC terminology isn't really a thing here. In these situations, I would never dream of correcting someone's phrasing or use of language because it's clear that they care and want to help; that's the important thing, not whether they used the 'wrong' word during a conversation with me.

So I really feel there's a difference between people who feel, deep down that there's something wrong with other people because they are in some way different to them, whether by race, gender, mental or physical faculties or any other reason, and subsequently go out of their way to treat them badly as a consequence of this, and people who have no issue whatsoever with people being different to themselves but may not have read up on what the current 'rules' are regarding what you should and shouldn't say to people. There's nothing wrong with pointing out to someone when they may have made a mistake, but I don't feel people should be treated as though they are as bad as people who directly go out of their way to abuse or harass others, simply because they used the wrong words or wore something that people would rather they didn't.

So to return to the subject of this thread briefly, I don't believe Marc Jacobs intended to insult, harass or abuse anybody with the hairstyles in this show and I don't think his feelings towards this hairstyle were negative or that he aimed to show it in a bad light. I think he thought the hair and clothing would enhance one another. I don't see where the bad intentions are here.

Intrinsicality · Oct 10, 2016

vanitas said:
So to return to the subject of this thread briefly, I don't believe Marc Jacobs intended to insult, harass or abuse anybody with the hairstyles in this show and I don't think his feelings towards this hairstyle were negative or that he aimed to show it in a bad light. I think he thought the hair and clothing would enhance one another. I don't see where the bad intentions are here.

I have first cousins and other close relatives that have grown up, are born or are half other ethnicities/from other countries. Our family gatherings can be massively multicultural, with different accents, food etc. Usually when we gift eachother stuff, it can be local gifts from our countries of origin etc. It's an exchange of values and customs really. So for example if anyone of my cousins or family were to get dressed in clothes signifying our shared heritage, or each other's as a means of respect and love...to an outsider it may seem like cultural appropriation? Whereas, we'd consider it a visible attempt at assimiliation, respect and care for the other's history.
^This is in a context of a microcosm.So, when @Artemis mentions globalisation, this is what I assume she refers to in a larger context. Especially now with the media, internet and travel, we aren't living in isolated pockets anymore. To isolate fashion, hairstyles and food otherwise, is really actually diminishing and thwarting this wonderful exchange from happening. (Not to mention, dreads aren't even something that can be claimed as an ethnic signifier by any one society).

Marc has said he believes it is beautiful. I think it was too. He did it as a means to elevate, not mock.

Isn't it odd to be offended by a hairstyle? Especially when it's being celebrated and shared on a larger platform ? I thought it was a problem that the ramps weren't diverse in their stylised depictions? It and popular media apparently only depict white, blonde, straight haired (and straight) folks with the token POC thrown in ....but lets do a show with beautiful dreads...and that's mocking too? What?

I have to ask, if you are a person who sees 'cultural appropriation' and takes offense so easily...do you think people of other cultures/ethnicities/ different from you, are only allowed to celebrate their heritage within the confines of only their own immediate society and family? It's not good enough for mass consumption? Is it like a parlour trick we do as part of our otherness??Or something that needs to be kept under wraps?

Hollywood and american media is one of the highest exporters, worldwide. Any cultural assimilation seen on film or otherwise can only mean good things.

America is made up of so many ethnicities, religions and people now. I think the friction starts when we start considering other people's heritage, cultural practices etc as the other and refuse to acknowledge as an equal.

Delirium · Oct 10, 2016

Intrinsicality said:
To isolate fashion, hairstyles and food otherwise, is really actually diminishing and thwarting this wonderful exchange from happening.

Preach! This is exactly what I was thinking but wasn't able to put in to words.

Marc Jacobs S/S 17 New York Showlist

SkinnyGossip Royal

SkinnyGossip Royal

SkinnyGossip Royal

SkinnyGossip Royal

SkinnyGossip Royal

SkinnyGossip Royal

Grand Dame

SkinnyGossip Royal

SkinnyGossip Royal

Community Duchess

Community Duchess

Grand Dame

Grand Dame

Community Duchess

Grand Dame

Deputy Head Bitch

Grand Dame

Community Duchess

Grand Dame

Super Star